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Straight Shooter
2012-02-06, 07:27
He rescued GM and Chrysler three years ago and now they're back and better than ever. GM is now back on top as the world’s No. 1 automaker. Look, the city of Detroit is still struggling but we've now turned the corner and we're on the right track. Clint will tell you:

_FSP15OIwn4

wdoall
2012-02-06, 07:48
Damn right brother. The auto bail out was a loan and is paid back with interest, while the bank tarp was a gift to help a curropt system. Let's put pride where it belongs, in American goodc and the U.S. auto companies

Supafly
2012-02-06, 08:27
The comeback of General Motors is indeed a gigantic success story.

STDiva
2012-02-06, 08:32
What a lame commercial.

Jagger69
2012-02-06, 08:36
Oh yeah well I say "so fucking what"?!! A goddamned fish saved Pittsburgh!!!!

Wre9bkg9Mxw

Sorry Iceman....don't mean to hijack your thread but the title immediately made me think of this....ahhhh how I miss the disco days (not!!!). Anyway, now back to more Obama superhero worship. :D ;)

Bingo Dosel
2012-02-06, 10:03
It wasn't Obama, it was you and the rest of the popullation with your taxes.

Sam Fisher
2012-02-06, 10:09
Obama Saved Detroit

And what a great job he has done! :2 cents:

ckvYGvxVHpw

Ike Stain
2012-02-06, 11:29
We'll probably lose about 1 billion 3 on the deal, but I still say it's worth it. The autoworkers are all getting nice profit-sharing checks as well, which as a supporter of working people, I very happy to hear. If the all the stupid-ass angry white men ever wake up and stop voting to be fucked-in-the-ass economically, we might actually have a chance at a decent country again.

Jagger69
2012-02-06, 12:15
Hey....if a republican like Clint Eastwood is on board, there's hope for all of us. From the Super Bowl last night in case you missed it:

vEM9dodyABo

PirateKing
2012-02-06, 12:36
"it's half time America"

Damn what a sexy-ass voice. Mah man Clint's still got that swagga.

Straight Shooter
2012-02-06, 16:06
And what a great job he has done! :2 cents:

ckvYGvxVHpw

Detroit isn't the only city in America with rough neighborhoods. Come over here to Chicago and I can show you the same thing. The same can be said for all of our mjaor cities. They all have their bad areas.

Spreeuw
2012-02-06, 16:33
Well, it was a team effort actually, don't you think?

Sam Fisher
2012-02-06, 16:42
From another thread.....


The president has no control over gas and food prices:facepalm: Get some new material guys. We all want to blame the president for everything but we forget about this thing called Congress, they have a role in this too. The American President in my opinion gets too much blame and/or too much credit.

:facepalm:

Sam Fisher
2012-02-06, 16:44
This thread...


Obama Saved Detroit

And from another thread.....


The president has no control over gas and food prices:facepalm: Get some new material guys. We all want to blame the president for everything but we forget about this thing called Congress, they have a role in this too. The American President in my opinion gets too much blame and/or too much credit.

:facepalm:

Straight Shooter
2012-02-06, 16:53
From another thread.....



:facepalm:

I stand by my statement. The American President in general gets either too much blame and/or too much credit. The economic numbers that came out this week relating to drop in unemployment is a perfect example. I'm a Obama supporter but I honestly can't tell you specifically how Obama brought down unemployment. But this happened under his watch and so he gets the credit for it. That's just the way it goes

Spreeuw
2012-02-06, 16:58
I stand by my statement. The American President in general gets either too much blame and/or too much credit. The economic numbers that came out this week relating to drop in unemployment is a perfect example. I'm a Obama supporter but I honestly can't tell you specifically how Obama brought down unemployment. But this happened under his watch and so he gets the credit for it. That's just the way it goes

Thought I'd be the first to admit that the state has little influence on real life events, they can steer the society little by little in a certain direction.
Obama carries responsibility for the loan they offered GM and he therefore supported already existing sentiments, willingness and workpower. It always are the people on the street who create society, but the state can promote or discourage certain actions/visions/beliefs etc.

Sam Fisher
2012-02-06, 17:03
I'm a Obama supporter but I honestly can't tell you specifically how Obama brought down unemployment.

Actually, he didn't bring it down.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn44/SamFisher_photos/jobNOT.jpg

Will E Worm
2012-02-06, 18:43
Stop the propaganda. Obama did nothing. Chicago is just as crime ridden as it has been. It's the next Detroit if things don't change.




The comeback of General Motors is indeed a gigantic success story.

GM did not comeback yet. They will have to start making the brands they stopped making to make that claim. ;)

D-rock
2012-02-06, 18:51
If this is what Detroit is liked "saved" I would hate to see what an unsaved version of the city would look like.

Straight Shooter
2012-02-06, 19:18
Stop the propaganda. Obama did nothing. Chicago is just as crime ridden as it has been. It's the next Detroit if things don't change.



You don't know what you're talking about. I live in Chicago and crime has actually gone down. Plus all the violence you hear about on the news is concentrated to only a few neighborhoods

Jenkum
2012-02-06, 20:03
Maybe all the undesirables will move out of Detroit after there is nothing left to steal. If it were repopulated with decent people it may not be such a bad place after a ton of disinfectant and reconstruction. It could be a huge lesson for the USA in how to take back ghettos, and turn them into the nice cities that they used to be before they were taken over by scum.

himperv203
2012-02-06, 20:19
nice add though

Will E Worm
2012-02-07, 12:35
If this is what Detroit is liked "saved" I would hate to see what an unsaved version of the city would look like.

Tell me about it. :D


Also, tell it to Rockerx who can't confront anyone in a thread, but he can leave inflammatory remarks in rep.


You don't know what you're talking about. I live in Chicago and crime has actually gone down. Plus all the violence you hear about on the news is concentrated to only a few neighborhoods

Why didn't you adress D-Rock? You know I am correct. :yesyes:


Maybe all the undesirables will move out of Detroit after there is nothing left to steal. If it were repopulated with decent people it may not be such a bad place after a ton of disinfectant and reconstruction. It could be a huge lesson for the USA in how to take back ghettos, and turn them into the nice cities that they used to be before they were taken over by scum.


They might. Then again they might move to another city to destroy that one as well.

Rey C.
2012-02-07, 15:03
By backing the debtor-in-possession financing and the pre-packaged Chapter 11, Obama did indeed save GM. Without that, GM would have gone into Chapter 7 liquidation: FACT!

And the only thing that GM needs to keep doing to solidify its comeback is make money - which it is. In fact, it is set to post the highest earnings in its history this quarter. Resurrecting dead brands means nothing. They had too many brands to begin with. And if they'd been worth something, someone else would have bought them (Roger Penske took a pass).

But here's the bottom line: Barack Obama had a helluva lot more to do with saving GM than Ronald Reagan had to do with the failure of the Soviet Union. So the tighty righties need to return to reality.

P.S. I offer my middle finger and my size 13 foot to Richard Shelby, Jeff Sessions and any other GOP'er who wanted to let the company (and the millions of people associated with suppliers) die.

E-Ann-Hilden
2012-02-07, 16:13
And what a great job he has done! :2 cents:

ckvYGvxVHpw

As a native Detroiter!

That is not the Farmers market which is a thriving area. The video managed to pick the worst areas by far. Mind you we have along way to go, but Midtown, New Center area and downtown has come along way in the past 5 years.

wdoall
2012-02-07, 20:35
Yes Detroit has some bad neighborhoods but it has many more nice and thriving neighborhoods. So unless you have been here and know what your talkin about, dont

vodkazvictim
2012-02-07, 20:55
All heil Obama - Siegheil!

Elwood70
2012-02-07, 21:11
Last I checked; Detroit is an American city. Shouldn't all Americans pull for Detroit to succeed? I know I am...

Jagger69
2012-02-07, 21:21
Last I checked; Detroit is an American city. Shouldn't all Americans pull for Detroit to succeed? I know I am...

Not this guy. He still hopes the automakers default even though Chrysler has already repaid their loan and GM is right on schedule to repay theirs. Oh well, I guess he can always hope.

W-BVmeQyNIU

Elwood70
2012-02-07, 21:27
Not this guy. He still hopes the automakers default even though Chrysler has already repaid their loan and GM is right on schedule to repay theirs. Oh well, I guess he can always hope.

W-BVmeQyNIU

That's funny...I bet he wouldn't have the balls to say that to Clint....

Sam Fisher
2012-02-07, 21:40
GENERAL MOTORS AGAIN RIPPING OFF AMERICANS: WARRANTIES EDITION - BIG GOVERNMENT

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/1911executivesales/government_motors.jpg

Let us begin with the $50 billion ‘We the People’ were forced to “invest” in General Motors – including a $30 billion Barack Obama bump so as to give his Administration greater sway in how things would subsequently go down.

We were originally told – by Obama himself – that we would make money on the bailout. Now we’re told we’ll lose somewhere between $11 and $14 billion (and given the stock price’s long, slow slide, maybe even more).

And about which we were lied to by the Administration. Which said this titanic loss of coin is less than they were expecting – just seven months after Obama his own self said we’d turn a profit.

Then there was the 2009 GM bankruptcy filing (which we were told our $50 billion would forestall – oops).

Through which the Obama Administration’s new toy car company eviscerated existing law to benefit their union, campaign-funding cronies at the illegal expense of GM bond holders – who should have by law received preferred treatment.

The ripped off didn’t take too kindly to being the Administration’s latest dupes:

We believe the offer to be a blatant disregard of fairness for the bondholders who have funded this company and amounts to using taxpayer money to show political favoritism of one creditor over another….

No kidding.


“What they’ve offered us is ridiculous,” said Chris Crowe, 50, a Denver, Colorado-based home inspector at an event organized for small bondholders in this Detroit suburb. “I know there are only so many pieces of pie, but they’re giving us crumbs.”…


(S)aid retiree (and GM bond holder) Dennis Buchholtz,… “We have invested twice as much as the government and we’ll only get a fifth of what the government will.“

Well that seems fair.

“I’m equally as mad at GM as at the government because GM has done nothing more than give the UAW (United Auto Workers union) and the government what they want,” said retiree (and GM bond holder) John Milne….

Government Motors giving the government and their union campaign suppliers what they want, and ripping off the rest of us. Shocker.

Now we get word that Government Motors is gearing up to rip off GM warranty holders. Specifically (at least for now) those holding on the 2007 and 2008 Chevy Impala.

Let us flashback to GM Bailout Time: Obama his own self promised Americans that were GM unable to make good on their warranties, the government would.

From one of his famous problem-solving speeches:

“Let me say this as plainly as I can. If you buy a car from Chrysler or General Motors, you will be able to get your car serviced and repaired just like always.


Your warranty will be safe. In fact, it will be safer than it has ever been. Because starting today, the United States will stand behind your warranty.”

When Obama asserts plainness or clarity – prepare for the worst kind of obfuscation.

GM is now trying to claim that their bankruptcy – which they used to illegally rip of bondholders – also allows them to rip off those who are seeking to have their GM cars repaired as per their written guarantees.

(I)n a recent filing with the U.S. District Court in Detroit, GM noted that the cars were made by its predecessor General Motors Corp, now called Motors Liquidation Co or “Old GM,” before its 2009 bankruptcy and federal bailout.


The current company, called “New GM,” said it did not assume responsibility under the reorganization to fix the Impala problem, but only to make repairs “subject to conditions and limitations” in express written warranties. In essence, the automaker said, Trusky sued the wrong entity.


“New GM’s warranty obligations for vehicles sold by Old GM are limited to the express terms and conditions in the Old GM written warranties on a going-forward basis,” wrote Benjamin Jeffers, a lawyer for GM. “New GM did not assume responsibility for Old GM’s design choices, conduct, or alleged breaches of liability under the warranty.“

So all Obama has to do is change his name, and he’s not responsible for the terrible economy he’s fostered? Same guy, same failed policies, different name – so vote for him again in 2012.

Is this a set-up? Is GM looking to duck their responsibility – so as to foist the bill upon We the People, as per Obama’s “plain” promise?

Or is there something even worse occurring?

Wasn’t GM “too big to fail” – meaning (we were told) we had to bail them out to make sure they kept their promises to the American people?

Not just to their employees, but to all those parts manufacturers and car dealers – everyone who was so intertwined with the auto monolith that they too would go down were GM to do so?

And weren’t we told over and over again that we needed to bailout GM because we had to make good on their contracts with the auto unions – you know, the ones that were illegally over-rewarded in the bankruptcy?

In fact, hasn’t that been a primary defense of the back-breaking status quo in government budget fights all over the country – Wisconsin, Ohio, Illinois and elsewhere?

That these governments have signed sacrosanct contracts with their public sector union cronies – and they must be maintained and adhered to, no matter how insolvent it leaves their states?

Well, these GM car owners have contracts too. But these are “plainly” deemed less sacrosanct.

Because these folks made the same fatal mistake as did GM bondholders (and select GM car dealers) – they didn’t contribute huge coin and political field work to Democrats.

Which of course the unions always do.

So on Obama’s Animal Farm, all contracts are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Thusly is the newest round of Government Motors rip offs set to commence.

http://biggovernment.com/smotley/2011/08/22/general-motors-again-ripping-off-americans-warranties-edition/

Sam Fisher
2012-02-07, 22:07
Not this guy. He still hopes the automakers default even though Chrysler has already repaid their loan and GM is right on schedule to repay theirs. Oh well, I guess he can always hope.

The Inherently Ideological Evaluation of the GM Bailout
Megan McArdle has done consistently excellent reported pieces on the GM bailout, and her recent evaluation of its net effect on the U.S. Treasury is no exception. Her bottom line is that the deal caused U.S. taxpayers to: burn $10-20 billion in order to give the company another shot at life. To put that in perspective, GM had about 75,000 hourly workers before the bankruptcy. We could have given each of them a cool $250,000 and still come out well ahead compared to the ultimate cost of the bailout including the tax breaks

This is in line with the Obama administration’s $14 billion estimate of the net cost to the Treasury, as reported in the Wall Street Journal. If anything, I think this understates the case on the direct costs, because it does not consider other direct transfers of economic value like the government support for Delphi that inflated the value of the asset that GM sold to create a big chunk of their headline profits this past quarter, green-car development subsidies, and uncompensated interest costs on the government investment.

But no matter what realistic direct bailout costs you estimate, the objection of bailout defenders is that it is dwarfed by the other receipts or avoided expenditures created by the bailout. According to the Wall Street Journal, this is exactly the defense offered by the Obama administration:

The White House report said the money invested in GM and Chrysler ultimately saved the government tens of billions of dollars in direct and indirect costs, including the cost of unemployment insurance and lost tax receipts that the government would have incurred had the big Detroit auto makers collapsed.

There is a lot to this point, but it’s not really so simple. You can’t compare all of these net tax receipts (or more broadly, economic activity) to what would happen in “the world as it is today, minus GM.”

First, in the event of a bankruptcy, you don’t burn down the factories, erase all the source code on all the hard disks, make it illegal to use the brand name Chevrolet, and execute all of the employees. Others take ownership of the assets, and the employees go on with their lives. Some of these assets will be put to use generating revenues, profits, and taxes, and some of these former employees will get jobs or start businesses, and generate revenues, profits, and taxes. In order to measure the effect of the bailout over, say, five or ten years, you have to compare the actual taxes collected to what would happened over this same period in the counterfactual case where the bankruptcy was allowed to proceed. What owners would have bought the factories and IP assets, and what would they have done with them? What businesses would the former employees have started? Who would have moved to Arizona and retired? What new industry clusters will evolve in Arizona because of this transfer of people?

Second, some of the profit GM makes today would have been made by other companies that picked up some of the slack if the company lost market share after a bankruptcy. They would pay taxes on these profits, and as far as government receipts are concerned, money is money. How would auto industry structure evolve over time given whatever changes happened to the assets currently owned by the legal entity GM, or the employees currently paid by it?

Anybody who tells you they can answer all of these questions reliably is full of it.

And that doesn’t even start to get to the really long-run considerations of what effects this has on rule of law and moral hazard (or if you want to make the case for the bailout, social solidarity and degradation of the working class).

I hold the belief, quite strongly, that the net effect of the GM bailout will be negative. More precisely, I hold the belief that over a series of many such decisions, a mindset that would have been stringent enough not to have sanctioned the GM bailout is likely to lead to better overall economic outcomes for America. This belief is ideological — not in the sense that I just hold it for inexplicable reasons that cannot ever be changed by empirical analysis, but in the sense that I don’t believe that human beings currently have the capability to conduct the kind of analysis that should convince a rational observer to change his mind about the GM bailout in isolation from a more profound paradigm-shift-like change in his beliefs about the world.

The GM bailout is not an isolated case of this problem. And as I’ve argued many times, impressive-sounding empirical analysis is typically insufficient to measure the effect of important economic interventions like the stimulus program. If you can’t even measure what effect already-executed programs have had, how likely is it that you can predict the effects of future programs?

Acceptance of this degree of ignorance doesn’t cut equally against all ideological positions. It leads naturally to a call for decentralized decision-making, experiments, and entrepreneurial groping toward knowledge.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/268637/inherently-ideological-evaluation-gm-bailout-jim-manzi

Baill Inneraora
2012-02-07, 23:07
The next time the national review is right on economic predictions will be the first.

georges
2012-02-08, 14:26
Having visited Detroit, Lansing and Flint back in 1993 and in 1999, they were already among the worst cities to live in the US.

georges
2012-02-08, 14:26
Obama didn't saved Detroit for these reasons: Detroit has closed schools and laid off police in an effort to avoid a bankruptcy filing this year. Home prices are down 54% the past three years, worst in the U.S. The median price was $38,000 last year in the Detroit-Livonia-Dearborn metro division.
It is also mostly one the biggest hometowns of ghetto boyz, the scum, the poor and the shittiest trash gangsta people live there. If you want to live in Detroit then get a bullet proof vest, a m14 and a desert eagle and maybe you will survive. Ghetto shit holes are not the best places to live and Detroit is an example among them because of the alarming criminality rate and the poverty is mindblowing.

http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/americas-most-miserable-cities-2012.html

Rey C.
2012-02-09, 04:20
"Saving Detroit" is a euphemism for saving the domestic auto industry in the United States, not so much about saving the actual city of Detroit. The domestic auto industry stretches from most of Michigan and Ohio to Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, North Carolina, California and most of the continental United States. While controversial to some, the auto bailout, and associated debtor-in-possession financing, was necessary to the very economic health of this nation. And... it worked! Which is why I think some on the fringe right are having such a hard time swallowing that fact. I know I'm not the only one who has noticed how joyful the wingnuts become when something negative happens to America, and how sad and pissy they become when something good happens. The only guaranteed cure for treason, my friends, is a short rope and a tall tree. Either that... or get the fuck out and don't get in the way of people who actually care more about this great nation than some sad sack of ideological bullshit! :2 cents:

The automobile industry is leading the way when it comes to job recovery in the U.S., with total jobs at all U.S. plant and parts factories set to rise ten percent–to about 650,000 this year, according to USA Today. The newspaper reports that total auto industry jobs is expected to hit 756,800 by 2015. Ford is set to add 5,500 workers this year, and GM slated to add over 7,000. Meanwhile, Chrysler is expecting to add new shifts of 1,100 each at two plants, and Nissan will add 2,750 this year. Stronger sales and greater acceptance of American made cars and trucks are among the reasons for the job increases. (http://automobilejournal.com/uncategorized/auto-industry-adding-thousands-of-jobs/)

And though we parted ways shortly after I cast my vote for him in 2000, when he says things like this, I have to think that if ol' George W. had stayed away from those turn-coat, traitorous neo-cons, he might not have been such a bad Prez.


Former U.S. President George W. Bush told car dealers gathered at a convention in Las Vegas he “didn’t want to gamble” with a depression in defending the loans he gave to General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC.

“I didn’t want there to be 21 percent unemployment,” Bush said in a speech yesterday to cap the annual National Automobile Dealers Association convention, attended by more than 20,000 people. “I didn’t want to gamble. I didn’t want history to look back and say, ‘Bush could have done something but chose not to do it.’ And so I said, ‘no depression.’”

“I’d make the same decision again if I had to,” Bush, 65, told Stephen Wade, the dealers association’s outgoing chairman. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-07/bush-tells-dealers-he-avoided-gamble-in-bailing-out-automakers.html)


It's that trillion dollars that he and the neo-cons pissed away in Iraq (to say nothing of the lives ruined by that stupid move) that I'd like to have back! But saving Detroit was absolutely the right thing to do... by both Bush and Obama! :clap:

Sam Fisher
2012-04-19, 08:58
My definition of saved is far different than most in here.

Did Obama save Detroit?

No. Taxpayers lose $20 billion so unions keep benefits and lifestyle for making crappy products.

ballzano
2012-04-19, 15:35
if you wanna throw your cash at a disfunctionally run city to prove a point, well it is your right, but, even though you are so very passionate and feel strongly about the subject. Monica conyers and kwame kilpatrick and many un-named compadres of theirs along with the UAW will ensure the future of the automotive industry will take place south of the mason-dixon line and China. just going by current trends

PlumpRump
2012-04-19, 16:37
Damn right brother. The auto bail out was a loan and is paid back with interest, while the bank tarp was a gift to help a curropt system. Let's put pride where it belongs, in American goodc and the U.S. auto companies

Yeah, but the GM loan was paid off using TARP money. And the total amount of the "loan" was only $6.7 billion, the rest of the money served as a governmental purchase of stake in equity of GM, about 61% worth. Look it up. Combined, the governments of the United States and Canada own more than 72% of GM.

PlasmaTwa2
2012-04-19, 17:04
I thought saving Detroit was why they built Robocop.

Rey C.
2012-04-20, 15:15
My definition of saved is far different than most in here.

Did Obama save Detroit?

No. Taxpayers lose $20 billion so unions keep benefits and lifestyle for making crappy products.

Well, to be fair, that's probably true. Course, your definition of "crappy" and J.D. Power's definition are probably very different too. I'd say that a sharp fellow, such as yourself, likely knows more about the technical term "crappy" than the engineers and analysts at J.D. Power.

Just for shits & giggles, how does your measurement and analysis system work? I mean, is it based on PP100 or something else? And how do you have various vehicles and brands ranked this year? Would you show us your rankings and your data?

Sam Fisher
2012-04-20, 16:12
Well, to be fair, that's probably true. Course, your definition of "crappy" and J.D. Power's definition are probably very different too. I'd say that a sharp fellow, such as yourself, likely knows more about the technical term "crappy" than the engineers and analysts at J.D. Power.

Just for shits & giggles, how does your measurement and analysis system work? I mean, is it based on PP100 or something else? And how do you have various vehicles and brands ranked this year? Would you show us your rankings and your data?

First: I said my definition of "SAVED" is different than most in here. Obama and his stimulus / bailout of GM has not saved Detroit.

Second: We the tax payers lose the $20 Billion Dollars, and guess who reaped the reward of the "turn around"? Yeah, the unions. (the same people who back Obama) Funny how that worked out huh? "I'll bail your ass out using the money from all the tax payers, and vote for me again, ok? Plus, you auto workers will each get a Bonus Check for $7,000 in March of 2012. And, don't worry about those tax payers who "saved" GM... they don't get a Bonus Check. But, they can buy a GM product!"

Third: GM and most every domestic cars have lagged behind imports in quality for many decades. This one time is proof positive that they are now King of the Hill?

Trident1
2012-04-20, 22:16
Barry saves GM...........................most of GM's employees work outside the US. Well done Barry.

E-Ann-Hilden
2012-04-20, 22:20
First: I said my definition of "SAVED" is different than most in here. Obama and his stimulus / bailout of GM has not saved Detroit.

Second: We the tax payers lose the $20 Billion Dollars, and guess who reaped the reward of the "turn around"? Yeah, the unions. (the same people who back Obama) Funny how that worked out huh? "I'll bail your ass out using the money from all the tax payers, and vote for me again, ok? Plus, you auto workers will each get a Bonus Check for $7,000 in March of 2012. And, don't worry about those tax payers who "saved" GM... they don't get a Bonus Check. But, they can buy a GM product!"

Third: GM and most every domestic cars have lagged behind imports in quality for many decades. This one time is proof positive that they are now King of the Hill?

How many people you think are directly and inderictly are employed by the auto industry? Plenty of corporations have been bailed out or recieve corporate welfare. But the CONServative since they thing that everyone that works in the auto industry is union, it is pure evil. W nor Obama wanted them all to fail, again the ripple effect would have maybe taken down Ford and many others. Get a clue on the the thousands of suppliers that support the auto industry, it is just not about GM or Chrysler.

Sam Fisher
2012-04-20, 22:46
READ IT AND WEEP!


As the president has ramped up into campaign mode, he has studiously avoided mentioning most of his signature accomplishments. One can see why. The health care legislation is unpopular, as is the stimulus. The one thing President Obama always seems to mention is the auto bailout. Given that automakers are profitable now, he asserts, his actions, which were purportedly opposed by Republicans, have been proven wise.
There is much about this line of argument that is objectionable. The auto bailout began in earnest when President Bush, in 2008, allocated part of the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) to the automotive industry. That decision was not without controversy in Republican circles, since there was arguably no legal basis for this use of the funds designated to help financial firms. But Obama's assertions about widespread Republican recalcitrance are incorrect.

President Obama did support the bailout once he assumed the presidency, and he bailed away with gusto. At the end of 2008, the Treasury had agreed to lend only $17.4 billion to General Motors and Chrysler, but by June 2009 the size of the bailout had grown to $55 billion, and by the end of 2009 it had reached $80 billion.

In the majority of his comments, the president focuses on the negative consequences that the bailout prevented and the number of jobs it created in the industry. According to Obama's website, he "made the tough and politically unpopular decision to extend emergency rescue loans to the American auto industry, saving more than 1.4 million jobs and preventing the loss of over $96 billion in personal income." The White House also states that "the industry has added 200,000 jobs in the last two-and-a-half years,and GM is once again the top-selling automaker in the world-posting its largest-ever annual profit in 2011."

These assertions are poppycock. If the government had allowed the automakers to reorganize in bankruptcy courts, unions would have taken a bigger haircut, the automakers would be stronger today, and the government would have saved money.

But the administration's most objectionable false statement regards the cost of the bailout to taxpayers. In a February 28 speech, President Obama referred to this expenditure of $80 billion as a bet on the American worker, and added: "Now, three years later . . . that bet is paying off, not just paying off for you, it's paying off for America." His implication that the bailout is succeeding-that it will not ultimately be a loss for taxpayers-is a constant theme of Democrats.

Information released by the Treasury, shows the current status of the financial assistance that the automotive industry has received through TARP. Out of the total $80 billion that has been paid out, only $35 billion has been repaid, some $7 billion has been written off, and $37 billion is still outstanding. That is, 9 percent of the original amount has already been lost, and close to half is still in limbo.

http://www.aei.org/article/economics...ilout-fiction/

Rey C.
2012-04-21, 02:35
How many people you think are directly and indirectly are employed by the auto industry? Plenty of corporations have been bailed out or recieve corporate welfare. But the CONServative since they thing that everyone that works in the auto industry is union, it is pure evil. W nor Obama wanted them all to fail, again the ripple effect would have maybe taken down Ford and many others. Get a clue on the the thousands of suppliers that support the auto industry, it is just not about GM or Chrysler.

This is correct. And counter to what has been previously claimed, though the UAW did receive a generous settlement, most of the workers who would have been affected by a Chapter 7 liquidation of GM would have been non-union. And that's simply because more people who worked for automotive component suppliers would have been affected than just people who assembled the components in auto plants. Many/most of these suppliers are located in non-union operations in right-to-work states. And those people are/were primarily non-union.

I don't feel the need (or have the desire) to re-post what I've already posted here concerning how Chapter 11 works. The ones who continue to rely on untrue notions don't seem to understand what has already been said anyway, so why waste my time, right? But long story short, unless there is debtor-in-possession financing, a Chapter 11 reorganization filing becomes a Chapter 7 liquidation. The fallacy that GM did not go through a bankruptcy court is just another myth spread on right wing radio and believed by the lemmings... much like the myth that there was private debtor-in-possession financing available in 2009, when there was not. If GM didn't go through a bankruptcy court, then who is Robert Gerber? :dunno:

Do I agree with everything that happened during the GM bankruptcy? No. Could it have been done better/cleaner/more "fair"? I'm sure that it could have. But did every Republican, who could find a mic to stand in front of, claim that a fast-track Chapter 11 bankruptcy was NOT possible? Yes! Richard Shelby and Pete Sessions most prominent among that group of nay-saying Nancys. And there lies the problem. Only now (well after the fact and the success) do we have these Monday morning quarterbacks rolling out of the stands, nit picking and whining. When there was a need for leadership and ideas, they had none! I worked through it. I lived through it. And I know bullshit when I smell it. Anyone who believes that by some bit of magic that GM could have just declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy, without the government acting as DIP financier, probably doesn't/can't understand the process well enough to justify explaining it to them twenty times. But the question I always ask: where were all of these bankruptcy and turn-around experts when we needed them in 2009???????? :dunno:

Now to a previous claim that "Detroit" makes crappy cars... I use data. I don't waste my time with subjectives and anecdotal claims, like "my buddy, Bob, bought a Ford and it broke down on him. But he bought a Toyota and it ran darn good. So ALL them Japanese cars are better than ALL them American cars". Riiiiight... :rolleyes:

The truth is... the data shows that over the past decade ALL cars have been getting better with respect to quality. Just looking at the Industry Average PP100 over the span of a decade or so would tell anyone with basic reading/comprehension skills that. And while it is true that Japanese brands do tend to dominate the top of the J.D. Power IQS rankings from year to year, it is not ALL Japanese brands. It's really only two: Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura. At the bottom of the annual rankings, there tends to be an American brand: Chrysler. But Chrysler is joined at the bottom by some Japanese brands (Suzuki and Mitsubishi) and German brands, while the Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus duo are joined at the top by various Americans brands: GMC, Cadillac, Lincoln, Ford and Chevrolet and Mercury (in 2009). The "quality gap" has shrunk. And it no longer applies to just Japanese vs. American - it's more brand specific than nation specific. That's what the data shows. And if someone doesn't like J.D. Power, flip open the past ten years of the Consumer Reports Auto Survey. You'll see the same trends there.


http://img287.imagevenue.com/loc456/th_986344391_JDPower2009108a_122_456lo.jpg (http://img287.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=986344391_JDPower2009108a_122_456lo. jpg) http://img289.imagevenue.com/loc540/th_986347264_JDPower2010_jdpower_iqs_2_122_540lo.j pg (http://img289.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=986347264_JDPower2010_jdpower_iqs_2_ 122_540lo.jpg) http://img249.imagevenue.com/loc116/th_498634873_JDPower2011Picture_245_433x550_122_11 6lo.jpg (http://img249.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=498634873_JDPower2011Picture_245_433 x550_122_116lo.jpg)


Not perfect. Not inexpensive. And I don't agree with every facet of the bailout and bankruptcy. But a well respected, long serving bankruptcy judge DID approve it (to say otherwise is a lie). And I give Obama full credit for doing what needed to be done, right when it needed to be done. And that is the part that the tighty-righties hate! Man, it just sets their shorts on fire. A man who they hate with all their being, with that one Hail Mary pass, did more for American manufacturing than the last two Republican Presidents put together! :1orglaugh

vodkazvictim
2012-04-21, 09:08
I blame the Turks.
Damn that Ottoaman empir and it's hubble-bubble smoking ******s!

Jack Davenport
2013-10-25, 20:30
Say what??

Jack Davenport
2013-10-26, 01:16
I swear to god I laughed out loud when Rey stated that he didn't want to repost how Chapter 11 works. Yes please don't. I know he prides himself in displaying his knowledge of all matters financial and the banking industry to this board on a daily basis but we could get 3 different law professors to lay out the nuances of bankruptcy law over the next 3 weeks and never begin to touch on what happened with this petition. Suffice it to say that this was one of the most complicated reorganizations in history. I wish it were as simple as producing cliff notes as I am sure the Southern District of Manhattan wish it had been. :) Christ this entailed not only required a viable plan presented to the court but then the court was a part of the very source ( The US Government) that would ultimately provide emergency capital. Couple all that with the formation of several sub corporations that were formed just to make it work in the first place such as warranties and overseas operations it became far beyond anything ever attempted before. Rarely does a company have to deal with unions in the midst of reorganization and having to discontinue products that the unions have a vested interest in. Let's just say that I am glad that it worked but this plan was hammered out in such a fashion that many things were rewritten and was far from your garden variety C-11 petition nor could the normal procedure accurately describe it. If Bed Bath and Beyond ever seek protection I may be able to indvlge you a little more.

- - - Updated - - -

I swear to god I laughed out loud when Rey stated that he didn't want to repost how Chapter 11 works. Yes please don't. I know he prides himself in displaying his knowledge of all matters financial and the banking industry to this board on a daily basis but we could get 3 different law professors to lay out the nuances of bankruptcy law over the next 3 weeks and never begin to touch on what happened with this petition. Suffice it to say that this was one of the most complicated reorganizations in history. I wish it were as simple as producing cliff notes as I am sure the Southern District of Manhattan wish it had been. :) Christ this entailed not only required a viable plan presented to the court but then the court was a part of the very source ( The US Government) that would ultimately provide emergency capital. Couple all that with the formation of several sub corporations that were formed just to make it work in the first place such as warranties and overseas operations it became far beyond anything ever attempted before. Rarely does a company have to deal with unions in the midst of reorganization and having to discontinue products that the unions have a vested interest in. Let's just say that I am glad that it worked but this plan was hammered out in such a fashion that many things were rewritten and was far from your garden variety C-11 petition nor could the normal procedure accurately describe it. If Bed Bath and Beyond ever seek protection I may be able to indvlge you a little more.

Will E Worm
2013-10-26, 10:44
Is thread a joke? Mr. Obama saved Detroit? I voted for him the first time. but he lost me early on. Where did all the money go that was meant to bail them out? If this is president Obama at his best, I shudder to see his worst. Call me a cynic but, something went terribly wrong not just in Detroit but around the entire counry. I think a lot of people could honestly say, and rightfully so, that Mr. Obama is not ready for prime time.

It will be very interesting to see how all of this plays out. But one thing is for sure - the city of Detroit is flat broke. One of the greatest cities in the history of the world is just a shell of its former self. The following are 25 facts about the fall of Detroit that will leave you shaking your head.

25 Facts About The Fall Of Detroit That Will Leave You Shaking Your Head

1) At this point, the city of Detroit owes money to more than 100,000 creditors.

2) Detroit is facing $20 billion in debt and unfunded liabilities. That breaks down to more than $25,000 per resident.

3) Back in 1960, the city of Detroit actually had the highest per-capita income in the entire nation.

4) In 1950, there were about 296,000 manufacturing jobs in Detroit. Today, there are less than 27,000.

5) Between December 2000 and December 2010, 48 percent of the manufacturing jobs in the state of Michigan were lost.

6) There are lots of houses available for sale in Detroit right now for $500 or less.

7) At this point, there are approximately 78,000 abandoned homes in the city.

8) About one-third of Detroit's 140 square miles is either vacant or derelict.

9) An astounding 47 percent of the residents of the city of Detroit are functionally illiterate.

10) Less than half of the residents of Detroit over the age of 16 are working at this point.

11) If you can believe it, 60 percent of all children in the city of Detroit are living in poverty.

12) Detroit was once the fourth-largest city in the United States, but over the past 60 years the population of Detroit has fallen by 63 percent.

13) The city of Detroit is now very heavily dependent on the tax revenue it pulls in from the casinos in the city. Right now, Detroit is bringing in about 11 million dollars a month in tax revenue from the casinos.

14) There are 70 "Superfund" hazardous waste sites in Detroit.

15) 40 percent of the street lights do not work.

16) Only about a third of the ambulances are running.

17) Some ambulances in the city of Detroit have been used for so long that they have more than 250,000 miles on them.

18) Two-thirds of the parks in the city of Detroit have been permanently closed down since 2008.

19) The size of the police force in Detroit has been cut by about 40 percent over the past decade.

20) When you call the police in Detroit, it takes them an average of 58 minutes to respond.

21) Due to budget cutbacks, most police stations in Detroit are now closed to the public for 16 hours a day.

22) The violent crime rate in Detroit is five times higher than the national average.

23) The murder rate in Detroit is 11 times higher than it is in New York City.

24) Today, police solve less than 10 percent of the crimes that are committed in Detroit.

25) Crime has gotten so bad in Detroit that even the police are telling people to "enter Detroit at your own risk".

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-21/25-facts-about-fall-detroit-will-leave-you-shaking-your-head

:goodpost:


Enter Detroit at your own risk is good advice.

Bring weapons is a good idea.

Master Roshi
2013-10-26, 10:55
half the population of Detroit can't even read, the population has been steadily declining there since the 70s as people continue to leave, that city has been destroyed and bankrupted , corruption has taken a very big stronghold there, now would actually be the time to buy up a lot of real estate in the worst neighborhoods for pennies on the dollar and hold it for a recovery sometime in the future, I just don't know when that recovery will be and Chicago from what I have read is a war zone, that gangster dirtbag Rahm Emanuel has pretty much taken the city hostage, most are afraid to challenge him on anything, its a big mess indeed, Chicago has a total gun ban yet those laws have not stopped the escalating amount of gun related homicides and that is because criminals don't care about gun laws and the black market for arms dealing is stronger than ever and will continue to remain strong as more gun restriction laws are passed

http://www.businessinsider.com/nearly-half-of-detroiters-cant-read-2011-5

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-murder-capital-of-america-fbi-142122290.html

500 homicides and counting, Chitown won't reach NYC's record of 1000 in 1990 but maybe they will attempt to break that record next year SMH

Master Roshi
2013-10-26, 11:40
_mzcbXi1Tkk

this is what the people have allowed to enter in politics, simply disgusting IMO, he has mastered the art of doublespeak

Straight Shooter
2018-08-11, 13:44
half the population of Detroit can't even read, the population has been steadily declining there since the 70s as people continue to leave, that city has been destroyed and bankrupted , corruption has taken a very big stronghold there, now would actually be the time to buy up a lot of real estate in the worst neighborhoods for pennies on the dollar and hold it for a recovery sometime in the future, I just don't know when that recovery will be and Chicago from what I have read is a war zone, that gangster dirtbag Rahm Emanuel has pretty much taken the city hostage, most are afraid to challenge him on anything, its a big mess indeed, Chicago has a total gun ban yet those laws have not stopped the escalating amount of gun related homicides and that is because criminals don't care about gun laws and the black market for arms dealing is stronger than ever and will continue to remain strong as more gun restriction laws are passed

http://www.businessinsider.com/nearly-half-of-detroiters-cant-read-2011-5

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-murder-capital-of-america-fbi-142122290.html

500 homicides and counting, Chitown won't reach NYC's record of 1000 in 1990 but maybe they will attempt to break that record next year SMH

By your reasoning shouldn't we just abolish all laws then?